dreamwars | Chat corner 47: The Last Jedi

~~I might cough up a longer post later, but I wanted to post something right away~~ so it got long right away, oops. XD

I went into the cinema knowing the movie is Controversial (TM), but I still enjoyed it! It does have a lot of valid narrative problems (I might start a thread about that on the Dark Side post, there's a really great review I've read that I'd love to share), and it makes some decisions I will forever mourn (...that's definitely Dark Side material for me), but it still had a lot of parts I loved.

I was extremely pleased when they said Rey was a nobody, I thought that was a great place to go with the Sequels. (Oh, me.)

Maybe this is a hot take, but I approved of the way it made Poe's dashing recklessness and inability to respect authority into something dangerous. It wasn't handled well, I understand why so many people hated it, and maybe "sometimes following orders is good, actually" isn't the right message for Star Wars, but I still think it makes a valid point.

Rose was sweet. I did feel the Rose/Finn romance was a bit forced, but Rose was great.

The scene when Holdo sacrifices herself to destroy the First Order ship is MAGNIFICENT. I know the sound cut is a gimmick but holy shit.

Luke's goodbye to Leia was horrible and amazing and I think I cried in the cinema (something I never do.)

Wow. It’s good that you try to keep things positive about that movie. Meanwhile I’m over here like, this is a mental gymnastics exercise to try to say anything without going LF Story Group/ RJ critical here.

When I initially watched the film, I was expecting the story to continue. Instead, I watched some edgy and weird art house film with Star Wars characters. I was absolutely perplexed to say the least.

When Luke threw Anakin’s lightsaber, I was like, something is wrong. And then it just went off the rails from there. I was completely taken out of the movie, out of the submersion, which was so unlike before.

(Lol one can argue the same with Thor Ragnarok, which came out the same year, given the creative freedom for the director contrasting the usual cookie cutter Marvel movies. However, Watiti is a better writer than RJ imo)

Off-topic: I made the inadvisable decision to start SW:TOR, and it continues to be inadvisable. The client is now trying to download ~40GB game data at 2MB/s 🙃️ I SUFFER.

When it eventually cooperates for you, let me know if you end up on the Star Forge server. Send me a message to my inbox here with your character name and I’ll send you a few little things.
The economy is crazy with inflation and that can make it difficult for newer (especially free to play) players to buy stuff.
I can even craft the retired crystals that don’t require the artifact authorisation which is also good if you’re not a subscriber.

Oh fuuu, I forgot servers are a thing. It's been a while since I last tried a MMO. I ought to go to Darth Malgus, but I might dare the lag and join you :D

It’s all good, if you have the option of a dedicated server definitely go for that. I’m Australian and we don’t have a sever for our region so I ended up on SF after the server merges a few years ago.

I'm on Malgus! Join meeeeee

:D I will, if I ever get this damn thing working! The download process finished after a few hours, only to announce that it's broken and I should try to repair it. So now it's repairing at 2MB/s. Uhhhhh progress, I guess?

Well, if it ever succeeds, hit me up with a character name and I can mail you some credits. If you want to join a guild (more XP, sane people to group with), I have invite permissions to an Imperial-side one that accepts all female characters and there's an ally guild that'll take any character if you love socializing. All the story questing can be completed solo.

How much background knowledge of SWTOR do you have? I can give a quick rundown of what the appeal for each origin story (formerly class) is and what the combat styles (formerly advanced classes) are. Note that it's still pretty soon into the new expansion so they've been doing bugfixing and some stuff might be out of whack.

Edited 2022-03-14 15:41 (UTC)

...annnnd I'm in! I'll hold off on those credits tho, I might need to remake my character.

My background knowledge is almost non-existent. Usually I like to get into games ass-first and figure it out as I go, but you know what, give me the deets! I've picked Jedi Knight Consular for the current character, but I'd appreciate some advice.

(The redo would be because of a dubious character name choice, lol. I smushed up two character names from a book series I like - it looks very GFFA, but now it sort of bugs me XD)

Woohoo! I can also drop that million on two characters – people greatly enjoy buying my crafted dye packs for their Space Barbie and parting from their money.

Here is a list of non-spoilery new player tips, though the combat styles section is mostly outdated due to the new expansion decoupling combat styles from origin stories. (Previously, a Jedi Knight could only be a Guardian or a Sentinel; now, a Knight origin story character also has the other two Force combat styles, Sage and Shadow, available by default, and the Dark Side/Imperial mirrors – Juggernaut, Marauder, Sorcerer, and Assassin, respectively – are unlocked if you've reached maximum Dark Side points on a character. I think new players get the opportunity to swap over to the mirror if they get enough LS/DS points? (Tech classes get access to all 8 combat styles immediately.)

I highly recommend 1. unlocking extra inventory space and 2. turning on Exploration Missions (press M to get your map, ticky on the bottom left). You have your class questline, which has purple quest icons, and each planet after the first will have a planetary questline, also in purple. The class questline depends on your class/origin story (so Knight, Consular, Trooper, Smuggler, Warrior, Inquisitor, Bounty Hunter, or Agent) while the planetary questline, regular yellow sidequests, and exploration missions depend only on the faction (Republic vs Empire). For your first time around, have fun getting lost and doing All The Things! Enjoy that sense of discovery. Oh, and quick travel (P > General > Quick Travel) is very convenient. When you get some credits, you can unlock a shorter cooldown (press Y, I think Character Perks is what you want).

Once you've reached the fleet, you have access to a Legacy bank (yellow thing on the center ring), which enables you to transfer gear and money from character to character. If you're free to play, your characters can only hold a max of 1 million credits at a time, but your legacy bank has no such restrictions.

Now, onto general story stuff! You mentioned being a shipper gremlin elsewhere IIRC, so briefly about the romances. All the base game (the 8 class stories + Ilum) romances are heterosexual; everyone has one option in their companions, with some (male agents, smugglers, and warriors) getting a second romance option and some (female consulars and warriors) getting a chance at a fling with a companion. It's also possible to get into some kissy action with various non-companion NPCs as part of planetary questlines; your companion might disapprove but it won't affect any romance you have struck up so flirt with anyone you wish. All romance dialogue is signposted with [Flirt] in the text and is wholly optional.

The first expansion, Rise of the Hutt Cartel (Makeb) brought same-sex romances – Imperials get a planetary questline with a gay man and Republic ~~scum~~ characters get a bi woman. The next expansion, Shadow of Revan, gives everyone two new romance options, one bi man and one bi woman. These continue through Ziost, which is the last place free to play players can go IIRC.

All romance options are bi in the subscriber-only content – the Shadow of Revan duo's romances continue, and you get 0-2 new bi men, depending on your choices, a few male companions return as bi romance options, a few female companions discover their latent bisexuality and are new options for female characters of the appropriate class, and new non-companion NPCs are introduced whom one can flirt with. If you do end up subbing and doing Knights of the Fallen Empire, do choose the [Flirt] option in the cantina in chapter IX – you get a second submenu on whom you wish to [flirt] with, and if you don't pick that option the romance is over.

As for the rest of the story stuff: have fun, and don't poke around anywhere, tempting as it might be – a lot of it is best experienced unspoiled! Since you're doing a Republic class first, if you end up sticking around, do an Imperial class next for a wholly new set of planetary questlines and missions. And I believe it is customary to keep us all updated on your story progress!

Whow, thanks for all the tips! I'm 100% bookmarking this. :D

Although, dammit, if I want to avoid spoilers, I'll need to stay out of the KOTOR tag on AO3, there's just too many crossovers with SWTOR. Oh well. I suppose I won't have time to read fic if I want to play both this and Mass Effect at the same time, anyway! XD

Can confirm, falling down a MMO hole is a very good way to not have time to read anything! xD I think filtering out crossovers/the SWTOR fandom tag should be enough to keep you spoiler-free on KOTOR fic; I haven't noticed much KOTOR fic with SWTOR elements (vs SWTOR fic with KOTOR elements) but it's been a while since I went looking.

If you get stuck or have further questions, I'll do my best to answer! Oh, and maybe turn off general chat, that can always be a bit bizarre. (Everything from Darth Jar Jar to US politics to my favorite, "no-one plays SWTOR". Delivered completely without the awareness that they are indeed playing SWTOR – at that present moment, no less!)

I'd go straight to the dark side but honestly I don't care to think about this movie any more ;)

I did like Yoda's line, "we are what they grow beyond."

I thought it was nice when Finn and Rey hugged at the end.

That was all that I remembered from that movie lol.

Their friendship was so sweet. I wish we saw more of the trio together.

That would have been nice. Although it seemed like Poe was originally set up as a minor character or the Wedge Antilles character but then with they changed his personality and backstory to be more like an expy of Han Solo. It just felt really forced?

I was horrified when they got to the third one and straight up made him a former drug dealer. he had a whole backstory in the comics that was perfectly good!

~~Wait, they actually went and contradicted the comics with the movie?~~ ...actually lets move this to the Dark Side, this is getting spicy

Edited 2022-03-15 06:55 (UTC)

Yeah his parents were rebel pilots who fought during the battle of Yavin? In a way he’s a legacy character as well as his own person.

SAME.

valid :D

I like that line as well!

I loved the idea that Rey had no special heritage and the idea of more force sensitive people in the galaxy. So many great scenes! It challenged my expectations, it surprised me -the throne room fight, the Holdo maneuver, Luke being a badass and the biggest troll ever!

Not to get all dark side, but anything wrong with this film was overshadowed by the next film being the worst.

I had to rewatch the throne room fight again - the lightsaber exchange and final kill is so good

But, the prequels and the classic eu already introduced the idea of more force sensitive people and beings in the galaxy?

And initially, I thought Rey was a Skywalker given her resemblance to Padme and Shmi, until actually watching the Disney sequels completely debunked that. I would have settled for her being a Kenobi. Clearly this is LF’s fault in the post Disney buyout for not having a concrete storyline in the first place.

Edited 2022-03-14 18:46 (UTC)

yes, of course there were plenty of other force-sensitive beings in the galaxy, but we also know that the empire engaged in a systematic genocide. as far as we know from the films, there were only a handful of people who were strong in the force left, and most of them had died. seeing Rey, Finn, the little boy with the broom fulfilled the idea of the Force "awakening" a new generation of potential Jedi.

the idea that a great Force-user could only come from a family dynasty is insulting and indeed counter to what was presented in the prequels and TCW, and counter to hundreds of years of Jedi practice before the collapse of the Republic. (and I say this as a Korkie-is-a-Kenobi truther.)

we can agree that the lack of a coherent plan for the sequel trilogy was a failure, but we'll have to disagree on the quality of the ideas presented in TLJ.

FWIW, I like your point about Force not running in dynasties. One of the things that I like on the Prequel-era Jedi Order is how diverse it is; how the Jedi come from all species. (I'd like to add "and cultures", but that one is a bit more dicey.)

I, too, loved that aspect about the Jedi Order! It's no mistake that the Jedi Council is the most diverse set of characters we see in ... the entire set of Star Wars films, I think?

(We see Barriss worship a Mirialan idol in TCW, and basically everyone who is not Mace Windu or in Yoda's disciple-lineage seems to have some culturally specific clothing according to various sourcebooks, so I'd say the Jedi being multicultural is canon.)

Yes, there were a few people who were force sensitive left in the Disney canon, meanwhile in the classic eu, there was a new Jedi order with a variety of new characters and the next generation of Skywalkers and Solos.

Exactly, Ahsoka Tano is an example of a great force user who hasn’t come from any ‘family dynasty’. She is her own being.

Edit: I wouldn’t necessarily call the Skywalkers a ‘family dynasty’. They obviously aren’t the only family who happens to be strong in the force?? Sorry I’m trying to understand this point?

It’s just some of the concepts in tlj that were marketed as new and different have been already introduced in the original saga, KOTOR, Clone Wars, Jedi Fallen Order, etc. so it’s kind of redundant.

Edited 2022-03-15 18:01 (UTC)

Re: family dynasty, the idea that Rey needed to be a Skywalker, Kenobi, or Palpatine.

Hmm, that seems very meta. Initially it wasn’t unusual for the audience to speculate on Rey’s background or connection to established and well known characters in the story.

I wouldn’t have minded if Rey would have been set up either as Luke’s daughter or one of his students from the start. Otherwise it seemed like Disney tried to mold Rey as their version of Luke instead of creating an original character with an original backstory.

Meanwhile I have not seen that argument pop up regarding Jaina Solo or Ben Skywalker in the EU/Legends. Both characters are their own, and their last names do not detract from their own character arcs.

Luke being a troll - I hate a few of the scenes, because I don't like embarrassment-based humor, but I actually can see how he'd end up like that. Because that's the exact same thing Yoda did, after the Purge. It's a (bad) coping mechanism, and a learned one at that.

Can't say it's my favorite part of the movie, though. Or at least, I wish the movie was better at showing it as a trauma response, not as a joke.

I wish I could properly admire the throne room fight, but alas.

I thought the Luke scenes were completely ooc. Unless, the Luke we saw in tlj was an older Luuke lol. Anyway, the set up was insufficient, rushed, and nonsensical. Contrast that with the upcoming Kenobi series that has potential (if written well) to explore Kenobi’s inner turmoil and trauma post Order 66 a bit more thoroughly.

I heard virtually nothing about the movie before seeing it because I don't like to be spoiled and I went to see it with friends, so saw it in the theater. I thought the opening section was great, with the tension of Rose's sister's sacrifice and the humor with Poe's approach. And having Leia turn that around and show what an awful decision Poe made was unexpected and intriguing!

But then I found it disappointing for a few reasons:

a) I was expecting to get more adventures of all three of our new heroes together, which did not happen
b) Since the first movie didn't do a great deal of explaining what had happened since the previous trilogy, I was amazed that the resistance was on its last legs after all that time. It made me even more baffled about what was really won at the end of RotJ.
c) I had assumed we'd get Luke training Rey which didn't really happen. I found that pretty disappointing because we never saw Luke himself get much training and I'm not keen on this idea that everyone just becomes a Jedi during summer camp.
d) I think my entire group found the whole casino section rather boring. OTOH I think that, canon-wise, it was one of the few things we see that actually addresses life in the new Republic. We sort of touch on this with Rey's introduction, but clearly Jakku is so much farther out in nowhere than Tatooine that we could be excused for thinking that her experience is more just living in what amounts to a company town of gig workers.
e) The film is back-loaded with all the exciting parts -- the throne room battle, Holdo's stand, Luke's appearance and scene with Leia, etc. It felt like a slog getting there.

So once I heard about the negative reaction to the film, I assumed it had to do with how it just seemed emotionally barren, given that we were now invested in the new characters as well as the older ones. But instead the reaction to the themes in the movie seemed to be the big sticking point and I actually liked those. It made me feel like they were trying to do something new with Star Wars which, after the copycat setup in the first film, seemed like a really good idea to me.

BUT. I think it ended up being a bad idea as part of a film trilogy. Star Wars films were always very lightly sketching out the verse in favor of action and thrills, and it seemed to me that questioning Poe's approach and Rey not turning out to be of some special bloodline were already enough of a twist in the story. I liked Rose just fine and wanted to have Finn get a significant storyline. But their quest just didn't seem to have the same overall importance and it seemed like it belonged in another movie or (and here's the key point) in a series.

Star Wars, since Clone Wars, has made its TV series do the heavy lifting in terms of world building and addressing issues in Star Wars. The closest we came to that in movies was in Rogue One (which is my favorite of the new films) which also had issues with back loading all the really high tension, exciting developments. So I felt like Rose and Finn's adventure was both too much and not enough.

Also, I'm amazed anyone was surprised at the boom in Reylo after this film, because one of the few ongoing threads that paid off was to see where this whole psychic connection was going with them.

I put my reply on the Dark Side post.

Chat corner 47: The Last Jedi

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